On Transparency, Politics, and Civilization's Future: An Interview with Daniel Ellsberg

For a man who once faced life in prison, Daniel Ellsberg has a surprisingly good sense of humor. Right now the 83-year-old whistleblower is unwinding after a packed lecture at Georgia State University by chatting with his wife over the phone. Earlier in the lecture, in a rare moment of humanizing folly, Ellsberg accidentally answered his wife’s phone call and her greeting of ‘Hi, Darling!’ was broadcasted to a packed audience. “I think I was a little funny afterwards, fortunately you didn’t say ‘hey, shithead!’ or something like that,” he jokes to his wife.

His hotel room resembles the backseat of a college freshman’s car. Miscellaneous papers, binders, magazines, and books litter his room as if a tornado had just passed through. Ellsberg appears stressed as his wife tries to get his passport in order for his upcoming trip to Russia where he hopes to meet with whistleblower Edward Snowden.

Ellsberg’s release of a massive, 7,000-page cache of classified documents known as the Pentagon Papers showed the extent to which the Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon administrations deceived the public about the Vietnam War. At the time of his trial in 1973, Ellsberg was certain he would be convicted. Now, American history has smiled on Ellsberg, but many in the current administration have condemned his successors such as Snowden and Chelsea Manning.

Ellsberg’s age shows only in the wrinkles of his face as he talks urgently about the state of U.S. surveillance, methods for increasing government transparency, and the twilight of civilization.

Oh, I’m sure I’m surveilled in terms of credit card, cell phone, and email, as is everyone. They collect everything but it doesn’t mean they collect it in real-time. They want to record it. I’m sure it includes content as well as meta-data. When they want to find out about somebody, they just dial it in like Google and they’ll get someone’s whole life. By the way, they can listen to you via your iPhone when it’s turned off. And of course the location is traceable. In short, they are more interested in me.

Now that it’s come out that I’m going to see Snowden, I imagine they’ll be a lot more interested in me. I don’t expect to take any computers or thumb drives or anything with me because they would probably confiscate it right away.

The big effect that whistleblowers can have is to alert the public that there is a real problem and a real abuse going on. It doesn’t solve it, but at least it alerts the public. Without that, they will say there’s no problem. They will say, ‘yeah we’re not transparent, but we’re doing things in your best interest. Trust us.’ And people either believe that or they don’t. Unfortunately, too many believe it, especially if it’s the president. I don’t know if that’s as true in the city. The answer is you want local sunshine laws and FOIA requests to get at the information to increase the transparency.

That actually has happened. Lots of states have done relatively well and far as I know cities could do it too, counties, any government could make it more possible and convenient to get at their records.

City councils can do it or not. If the public wants it, they’re more likely to get it – if they act. Somebody told me tonight that there was a case just now in Atlanta for a judge who tried to enjoin a newspaper from printing some information. He said the judge was embarrassed to find that what he was trying to do was unconstitutional as a result of the Pentagon Papers case. That what the county couldn’t do, he couldn’t do. And he didn’t know it. That could be changed and should be changed.

There are secrets that should be kept indeed at every level. But there’s always a risk when you do that because you have to take steps to keep it in bounds. That’s where people learn to be very discreet. Sometimes they learn to be too discreet because in order to keep the goodwill of their colleagues, bosses, agencies and fellow citizens, most people will keep their mouth shut unless they themselves need the info out for their own benefit. But if it’s for other people’s benefit, I’m sorry to say that humans can keep their mouth shut about abuses even when an enormous number of lives are at stake, when wars are at stake and when the climate is at stake. That’s actually normal behavior. It’s toxic, murderous, and it’s a kind of obedience.